Number of attemps in Prelims for Long and Highjump

This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.

Comments about this discussion:

Started 14 Nov 15:23

Klaas asked me to start this discussion about the number of attemps in High and Longjump prelims. I fully support his Idea that additional to the limit of 12 attemps in total the attemps per distance should be also limited in prelims like in the finals. So here is what Klaas and me suggesting:

The current Rulebook says in 13B.5, Number of Attempts (for highjump and longjump)

Prelims: In the preliminary round, riders have 12 attempts to complete their best performance. These attempts can be at any distance and there is no additional limit to the number at any one distance. However each attempt must be at the same or better distance. Thus a rider cannot attempt a longer distance, fail, and then attempt a shorter distance. The best successfully completed attempt is the rider’s result.

Finals: Riders get three attempts for each distance. Riders must successfully complete each distance before moving on to the next distance.

So for the Finals there is a limit on number of attemps per distance (or per height). But in Prelims there is explicitly not - I don't know why not.

I have seen at the last Unicon that some riders skip a few distances (i.e. not trying them), and then spend a lot of attempts on a distance that they are unlikely to achieve. Thereby, they are holding up the flow of the event which is a nuisance to other riders, and to the public as well.

I see two possible solutions (for Prelims only):

1. In addition to the 12 attempts overall, limit the maximum number of attempts per distance (or height) to three, or

2. If riders compete in a group (which is usually the case), they may not skip distances that other riders do attempt.

Personally, I think the first solution is better (note from Klaas, I agree also to this one)

The following comments are my personal comments in addition to this idea:

I would like to add to the Finals rule the fact that there is no limit in the total number of attemps as I learned at Unicon that some people read the rules different from how they are meant. So this add on wont change the rule but make Prelims and Finals 100% clear.

I also can imagine to limit the number of total attemps to 9 instead of 12 to shrink the time needed for prelims.

So your comments / ideas please

Comment 16 Nov 06:28

Dear Olaf & Klaas,

it is a great idea to give the issue of attempts in long-\highjump competitions some room for discussion in this committee. In the following I'm going to present some facts out of personal experience:

1. Preliminary rounds with 12 attempts in total and no further regulations on attempts per distance\height are highly time consuming and hard to follow for any spectators. The last UNICON, unfortunately, also proved that right as some participants (especially those starting at a larger distance\height) had to wait for hours to start their competition in the first place. The introduction of a system with 3 attempts per distance should provide an adequate procedure to overcome this shortcoming.

2. The implemented rule of 12 attempts in total and 3 attempts per distance in the finals, on the other hand, already works quite well in practice. It helps to create a transparent competition environment and is easy to follow for the competitors as well as for the spectators. Therefore, it may already serve as a "role model" for the preliminary competitions. Nevertheless, it does not make sense that each competitor has to cover EVERY SINGLE distance during the final competition, given the fact that the individual level of covered distances differs a lot between riders. Starting at a distance of 2,50m it may be the case that you are obliged to complete a whole 11 jumps before you are finally "allowed" to start at your initially requested starting distance. Consequently, riders should be allowed to skip some distances in order to save some strength for larger distances.

Regards, Lisa Hanny.

Comment 19 Nov 15:19

There exist no limit in total for the finals, its just a miss interpretation of the rules in germany. To limit the number in finals make no sense as it would limit the competitors to show their best. The need to manage every distance in finals is for sure useless and Im not sure if this is another part of the rule which is not written down as it should be. From my opinion a rider must manage every distance he start to jump but not every distance any other rider do.

Comment 19 Nov 18:41

Yes Olaf, there's at least one particular sentence that needs rewording in the finals' rules: "Riders must successfully complete each distance before moving on to the next distance." I also agree with everyone that this sentence was misinterpreted at the last Unicon by Estelle and myself when the finals started, and by fairness we decided to stick with the interpretation. It is not the initial subject of this discussion, but something like "Riders must successfully complete each distance they attempt before moving on to the next distance" would probably clear this ambiguity.

To get back on track, I am still unsure if I see an issue with the way prelims are currently managed. I don't think there's a perfect system, but still I'm almost certain that 12 attempts overall (2016) is already an improvement in efficiency compared to 3 attempts per distance/height (2014 and -) in regard to the total time needed to run the event. I don't think the idea that longer/higher jumpers had to wait longer to start is accurate either, if the way groups of riders are managed is the same in 2016 and 2014, it should take the same time for someone to start competing. The 2016-way instead avoids competitors warming up on the official stations: previously, people could start at very short/low distances/height and build their way up, now they have to plan strategically their attempts.

I think the 12 attempts overall and 3 attempts per distance would be even harder to follow for both competitors and public, and could appear to be unfair.

I actually find the 2016-way well balanced: it acts as a qualifying round for the finals, but still offers the possibility for the average riders to have some fun at the event, and even surpass themselves. I have actually seen quite a few people manage to get their distance after 5 unsuccessful attempts.

The issue is more one of number of available stations/volunteers (which is hard to improve), and that about 20% of competitors show in the first 4 hours of the competition timeslot, and 80% in the last 4 hours. This is yet another issue that could be addressed in another discussion, but maybe a solution could be to have official waves as in Trials, either randomly drawn, or by previous results, or (somehow, I don't know how) by forming groups with competitors you know have a similar level to yours, as it currently happens unofficially.

Comment 20 Nov 07:25

@Olaf: You are completely right, there does not exist a limit on the total number of attempts in the final competitions according to the IUF-rulebook. As a matter of fact, as a German rider I already got well accustomed to our own interpretation of this particular rule that I am already starting to mix things up. But of course, the rules concerning the final competitions (3 attempts per distance and no limit on the total number of attempts) make sense the way they are, as they do not limit riders in achieving a great distance. Therefore, they should also be implemented on the national level without further deviations.

@Hugo: Being completely frank, I do not really support your opinion on the way the preliminary rounds are currently handled. The underlying problem is the following: Providing every participant with 12 attempts in total and no further regulations per distance makes riders more likely to adopt a rather opportunistic behavior, such that, they tend to carry out the total number of 12 jumps. Including the additional rule of 3 attempts per distance would make the competition much shorter in the sense that some riders would already be barred from continuing their long-/high jump competition as they do not manage to make a certain distance within the scope of 3 attempts. Consequently, they would already have to leave the competition after, for example, 6 attempts. Experience also shows that some riders tend to spend, for example, a total 8 attempts on one single distance and therefore are preventing their fellow competitors of continuing their competition. As a result of that, some long-/high jump competitions are highly time consuming and take on forever. Especially people starting at a longer distance suffer from this rule, as they have to wait for all 12 jumps per competitor to be over.

In my opinion, the introduction of a 3-attempts-limit per distance is just a necessity to restore competitive power in long-/high jump competitions. It is a fair procedure, given the fact that it applies equally to all participants, and gives riders starting at a longer distance a fair chance to enter their competition. Furthermore, it is more transparent in the sense that you have an overview over a participant´s remaining attempts per distance (not a 12 jumps-in-total ambiguity that is hard to follow). Of course I do also see your point that some riders might need more attempts than 3 to complete a certain distance, but honestly that is just the point of practicing. As far as I am concerned, a competition with 12 attempts in total lacks the typical characteristics of a competition per sé and can rather be seen as a training session. In this context you also mentioned the aspect of having fun during the competition, but here I have to state that this type of fun may not be to the cost of serious competitors who spend a lot of time practicing for high-/long jump competitions.

Concluding my comment, I also have to admit that personally I was really surprised when I first heard about this change in the rules. Of course I can only speak for German national competitions, but the 3-attempts system has worked very well over a couple of years. The change to a 12 attempts system without further regulations, on the other hand, brought about some initial chaos and was not perceived as a great improvement among competitors as well as spectators. (But of course that is just my limited personal experience/perception)

Comment 21 Nov 01:27

While I totaly agree to Hugo that the schedule is a major problem in jumps (usually one day and a rider can appear when he/she likes), I also can follow Lisas arguments that 12 attemps in total without any limit per distance is not that helpfull as it should be. We implement this limit to shorten the competition time in total but it dosnt work perfect. I think to have a general rule of 3 attemps per distance while keeping the number of 12 attemps in total for the prelims will do the trick better to shorten the competition and to focus the riders more on it.

Comment 21 Nov 10:18

@Olaf: Exactly my point. I really hope that the number of attempts will finally come up as a matter during the final voting rounds.

@Hugo: The schedule of the competition definitely is a matter that needs further consideration concerning long-\high jump competitions. But nevertheless, the organization of a unicycling event often happens within the discretion of the organizers. As a result of that, I am not sure if organizational matters can actually be included and finally implemented within the scope of the IUF rulebook. Even though, it would be great to further discuss this point.

Comment 21 Nov 17:22

in german competitions and also on the last european Championship we practice 12 attempts for the Age Group and finals, for the finals additional Limit for each height / length of 3

additonal pratice:

the rider can skip a height or length and can decide when he wants to jump by rising height / length.

most of you know how dangerous the Long jump final was on the last unicon and all of finalists have to jump very often more than necessary, that was one Topic

Comment 22 Nov 15:07

Basically it seems that there already exists some consensus within our discussion group to limit the number of attempts per distance/height to 3 and to keep the total number of 12 available jumps in the preliminary rounds. Another matter of discussion seems to be wether to include the number of 12 jumps in total in the finals as well. Frankly, I do not think that this will have a huge impact, given the fact that most riders do not even carry out 12 jumps during the final competition. This is often due to the fact, that they already have to leave the competition earlier on as they do not manage a certain distance on their third attempt. Another reason might be that the final competitions are somewhat exhausting, in the sense that, distances get larger and larger and therefore people end the competition voluntarily after less than 12 attempts. But of course, I personally would not mind to include this additional rule in the rulebook, even though I do not see the urgent need to do so.

Nevertheless, I am not completely conform with our last commenter´s proposal to make these rules "optional" in their application. As this procedure only contributes to shortening a competition, I do not see the need to deviate from these rules during some competitions and to apply them to the letter in other competitions. As most competitions are carried out "according to current IUF rules" the organizers should also regard these newly developing rules as binding. Otherwise, this optional application of the rules would only lead to confusion among the riders and is most often the basic root of conflict. Furthermore, riders do need some reassurance that the official rules will also be effectively applied during every competition to arrange their training sessions in a way that is helpful to meet IUF requirements.

Another issue that certainly needs some room for discussion is the above mentioned danger to jump on the street. Unfortunately, there is little to be done about this shortcoming as some organizers are simply not able to come up with a better alternative. But of course, every proposal concerning this topic will be more than welcome. (Probably this topic could also be included in the discussion "pay for what you get" in the Main Committee)

PS: As I am a new member in the rulebook committee my current knowledge of the rulebook is not yet completely up-to-date. Could somebody please send me the currently applied version of the rulebook to lisa.hanny@gmx.de as I am not able to access the rulebook on the IUF webpage. (Some maintenance work seems to be going on there)

Comment 28 Nov 08:19

@ Lisa: the IUF page was down for about 10 weeks, since today you can access it agaon and so you can get the rulebook there, best is to pick it from the link on the start page here in the committee.

@einrad...: I know that you use the rules in a different way and as Hugo already state they did one mistake while Unicon in interoretation of the rules wording as it is not 100% clear defined.

So skiping of hight / length is usually allowed by the rules in prelims and finals (was the mistake at Unicon but it counts for all competitors there so no disadvantage)
The limit of 3 jumps max per distance seems to be accepted by everyone here
The llimit of 12 jumps in maximum for prelims seems to be accepted by everyone here
A limit of maximum jumps for the finals is wanted by some while you also agree that a limit in finals will simply limit the finals ans usually it limits itself by nature.
An additional rule which allow a host to lower the limit of max jumps for agegroups is unrealistic as usually the agegroups get their placements out of the prelims, there is not prelims, age groups and finals in 3 seperate competitions from my experience.

Surface is another topic and more difficult. Jump in Gyms is often bad as metal pedals are usually forbidden. Jumps on Tatrtan are liked by some and hated by others, also Metal Pedal limit appears on some Tartan tracks. Jumps on concrete are liked by some and hated by others also. Even conrete can be very differtent in its surface and grip. I think there should be a different discussion about possible solutiuons while I see no good way to limit jumps to one surface. It will be very difficult then for hosts to provide jumps always.

Comment 03 Dec 06:47

So if anyone has a good idea of how it should be, maybe they should create a proposal associated with this discussion and then we can vote on it, otherwise it won't change ;)

Comment 08 Dec 16:29

Done ;)

Comment 08 Dec 16:40

That seems like an Nice in between! I like it!