Protest timeThis discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.
Comments about this discussion:
In 2B.4 it is stated that protests must be filed on an official form within 30 minutes of the posting of event results. I also like the stating that for a large event (like Unicon) this period should be extended to 60 minutes, if possible.
Especially for large events where the finals are held on a separate day I think 60 minutes may be better than 30 minutes.
But on the other hand for smaller events where the finals are held subsequent to the age group heats 30 minutes are a long time… In my opinion the protest time which is reasonable depends on how many competitors an event has, how big the event area is and how good the beginning of the protest time is announced.
I think for small events it would be also reasonable to have only 15 minutes protest time before the finals will be started on condition that it will be clearly announced when the last results are posted and the protest time begins.
What is your opinion?
I like the idea of shorter protest time for smaller events. It can seem like a lot of wasted time waiting for the protest time to elapse. Track can take all day and it's exhausting. I would be in favor of shortening the protest time.
For larger events I'll leave that debate to those who know more than I.
Protest times were originally 15 minutes after posting of the results. This has been lengthened to what it is now. I may have been in the rulebook committee when this change occurred, although I can't remember the arguments that were used at the time. But I hesitate to make the time window shorter again.
However, now that we discuss Protests: I think there are two meanings of 'event' in the first two sentences of 2B.4. By way of example: Unicon is an event, and wheel walk is an event. This is confusing, and one could interpret the rules as if a protest must be filed within 30 (or 60) minutes after all results for the whole Unicon are posted. This is clearly not the intention and needs sharpening up. I would change the first sentence into:
Protests must be filed on an official form within 30 minutes of the posting of the specific results that someone want to file their protest against.
Here the wording from the IUF Rulebook 2012:
"The official protest form must be available to riders at all times. All protests against racing results must be submitted in writing on the proper form after a race, until 15 minutes after the results are posted. The form must be filled in completely. This time may be extended for riders who have to be in other races during that time period. All protests will be handled within 30 minutes from the time they are received. Mistakes in paperwork, inaccuracies in placing, and interference from other riders or other sources are all grounds for protests. All Referee decisions are final, and cannot be protested."
You're right, the protest time has been lengthened to what it is now and the sentence "For a large event (like Unicon) this period should be extended to 60 minutes, if possible" was added. And I think this rule is definitively reasonable for large events like Unicon or european championships. And again I think for large events where the finals are held on a separate day I think it's reasonable to length the time to 60 minutes.
I haven't been in the rulebook committee when this change occurred, therefore I don't know the arguments that were used at the time. But in my opinion it wasn't though about the consequences for smaller competitions where the finals are held subsequent to the age group heats (or the consequences were unforeseeable). I know a lot of competitions were the organizer had problems with the schedule because of this 30 minutes break (and also a lot of rides don't understand why there are so big breaks between the last age group heat and the finals). You also need some time to post the results of the last age group, so that 45-50 minutes breaks can occur. And that is really long in contrast to 90-100 minutes you need for all age group heats together for example.
Because of that I would like to see the possibility for the convention host of small (not Unicon or other big championships like european championship) to short the protest time to 15 minutes under the condition that it is clearly announced when the results were posted and the protest time begins.
I don't know the arguments for using the word event in the 2013 Rulebook. Your wording seems better than using "event" with two meanings although the context makes clear which meaning is meant by the rule.
Can we agree on the following (not worded as a rule yet):
- The default protest time is 30 minutes, but at a large convention like Unicon it should be 60 minutes if possible. The time may also be extended for riders who have to be in other races (this is the same as the current rule)
- A convention host may chose to make the protest time for any event shorter than the above-mentioned times, on the conditions that
(a) the protest time cannot be shorter than 15 minutes, and
(b) the duration of the protest time is clearly announced when the results are posted, including stating the protest deadline on the results list itself.
I'm still undecided as to whether (2) should explicitly only be allowed at smaller conventions. Maybe we should discourage, but not forbid it for bigger conventions such as EC and Unicon. And/or maybe the minimum protest time for EC and Unicon should be 30 minutes.
Yeah, your suggestion is what I intended. I think adding "including stating the protest deadline on the results list itself" is reasonable.
I would be fine with leaving the minimum protest time for EC and Unicon at 30 minutes, because at this big international competitions also language barriers may occur so that more time is needed to write a protest. Also on EC or Unicon there are much more parallel events/competitions so that more rides will have other events (races) or will not be present in the stadium all the time.
- Large convention such as EC or Unicon: default protest time 60 minutes (we can drop "if possible"), minimum 30 minutes.
- Smaller conventions: default 30 minutes, minimum 15 minutes.
- Every deviation from the default has to be clearly announced, also on the protest form itself.
- In all cases, protest time can be extended for riders who have to be in other races, as it is already in the rules.
I agree to all of this.
Do we need a strict definition of "small" versus "large"? I think we would all agree Unicon and EC are large, but what criteria defines small?
Good point, but I think that the distinction between large and small conventions is used in several places in the rulebook, without strict definitions. It would be fine with me if we start the paragraph with the default of 30 minutes, minimum 15 minutes, and then state that for large conventions such as Unicon or continental championships, 60 minutes and 30 minutes apply. In this way, at least NAUCC, EC and Unicon are explicitly large, for other conventions this is open to interpretation.
I would feel comfortable with going the way you suggest.
What happens for protests that are handed in after the deadline? Especially if it affects a World Championship title and the results are clearly wrong (10k at the last Unicon)?
Arguing over the 30 to 60 minutes is rather pointless as it is generally ignored. Can we give officials the power to ignore protests after the deadline? Is this the right thing to do?
Good point, Connie. IMHO the lead event official should have the option of making things "right" regardless of the timing. Heck, the IOC is just now taking Olympic medals away from athletes who snuck past blood testing years ago! My point is: a violation of the rules should NOT be allowed to continue simply because the written process ties the hands of the officials to do the right thing.
Can we rephrase the protest rule such that the window to submit a protest must be at least x minutes? That way, every rider has a certain guaranteed minimum time, but there is no maximum which may be needed in cases like the 10 k in Spain. For multi-day conventions such as Unicon, a tight maximum (like the old rule seems to prescribe) doesn't seem useful.
Thinking back about the 10k in Spain, the phrase "All Referee decisions are final, and cannot be protested" wasn't adhered to, and for good reasons. Perhaps we should ditch this?
BTW, this is the chapter and discussion about track racing. Many more chapters have a protest rule, for Road Racing it is already at two hours (see 4B.4) which is more than in track racing, and understandeably so. With the split-up structure of the rulebook, it is of great importance that good checks are performed for consistency throughout the rulebook!
Having said that, maybe this committee should also be concerned with 3B.4.
I think protests that are handed in after the protest time do not have to be taken in consideration. We should give officials this power - otherwise we don't need to define a protest time.
One example: Rider A gets a wrong time in his age group heat and hands in a protest two hours after the results were posted. Rider B gets also a wrong time in his age group heat and because of this he is not in the final, he hands in the protest one hour after the results were posted but the final is over now. While we could correct the time of rider A because this has no influence to the finals we can't restart the final if everything is over right now. Because of that I think the officials should have the power to ignore protests after the deadline.
But I agree that there might be cases where the lead event official should have the option of making things "right" regardless of the timing. Taking away medals because of doping is such a case. It wasn't possible to prove this violation of the rules earlier and because of this it's reasonable to have the possibility to penalize it even years ago.
OK but we also should give officials the power to still take protests in consideration after the official protest window. Indeed in a case like your example with riders A and B a wise official won't do that, but in some cases (also the 10k in Spain where things took days to correct) they need this power, I think. I think we need to trust officials to handle this wisely, and put the consider-or-not-after-the-deadline decision at their discretion.
I think up to now the protest paragraph addresses the riders. The paragraph says that the riders have the responsibility to fill in the official protest form within 30 minutes. The paragraph doesn't make a point about what the officials should do with protests after this deadline and because of this lack of clarity in my opinion we gave the officials the power to put the consider-or-not-after-the-deadline decision - as Klaas wrote - at their discretion. Of course we have to trust in the officials that they handle this wisely but maybe this trust in the officials is better than trying to make a rule which tries to cover a lot of possible situations and leaving no room for discretion.
I think we have said enough so that you can make a proposal now?
I will make a proposal when I'm back from my holidays in two days.
Thank you for writing the proposal. If I may, I have two suggestions for improving the text.
First, separate HOW the protest must be submitted from WHEN it must be submitted. Your current text might leave one wondering when a protest must be submitted if it is not on an official form.
Secondly, the one-but-last sentence (starting with "Mistakes") should logically come earlier - this was also an issue in the original text.
All in all, my text suggestion would be:
Protests must be filed on an official form. Mistakes in paperwork, inaccuracies in placing, and interference from other riders or other sources are all grounds for protests. For a large event such as Unicon or continental championships, the default protest time is 60 minutes (counting from the posting of results), the minimum is 30 minutes. For smaller events, the default protest time is 30 minutes, the minimum is 15 minutes. Every deviation from the default protest time has to be clearly announced when the results are posted, including stating the protest deadline on the results list itself. The protest time may be extended for riders who have to be in other races during the protest period. All protests will be handled within 30 minutes from the time they are received. All Referee decisions are final, and cannot be protested.
You're right - the rule is more clear with your suggestions. I will revise the proposed rule.
One thing, if I may: I would move the sentence "All Referee decisions are final, and cannot be protested." to the very end of the paragraph. This makes the sequence more logical, in my opinion.
Definitely like the new timing for default protest times.
I dislike the wording of this sentence " All protests will be handled within 30 minutes from the time they are received." This is simply not possible in some cases. Or the referee may decide that the protest is relevant only to the rider in question and does not affect any current races on the track. The referee will know that the protest will be resolved but it is not a wise choice to stop everything.
I am not sure how to state it to be clear for non-native English speakers, but something to the effect that the protest will be acknowledged and an effort will be made to handle the protest within 30 minutes.
This was not the subject of the change, the sentence was simply copied from the old rulebook. But I see your point, and will see how I can change it.
Oops, I can't :-) I thought for a moment that I was the owner of this. Sorry, Jan V!
Maybe the misunderstanding arises from unclarity about what "handled" means. The way I understand it, acknowledging is a form of handling, but it's not the final stage.
Anyway, here is my suggestion:
All protests will be handled within 30 minutes from the time they are received.
All protests will be acknowledged within 30 minutes from the time they are received, and an effort will be made to settle the issue within those 30 minutes.
How's that, Connie?
@Klaas: I like your new wording. Thanks.
If others dislike it, keep it out of the proposal as I really like the new timing suggestions and do not want that part to fail.
So everyone: speak up if you dislike my wording of the handling deadline.
@ Jan V: In addition to the above suggested change (if you like it), please consider to extend this proposal to cover not only 2B.4 but also 3B.4. The "old rule" is exactly the same, and there is no reason why the "new rule" shouldn't be the same. This can be done under a single proposal (yours) since it is exactly the same issue. It's only because of the contentious (my judgement) split-up of the rule book that this section now appears in two places.
I also see Connies point and I like your wording Klaas. If no one speaks up that he dislikes it, I will revise the proposal and work it in.
In the proposal I wrote: "Olde rule: 2B.4 & 3B.4 Protests […] and Proposed new rule: 2B.4 & 3B.4 Protests […]". So I think it should cover both track racing chapters in the rulebook right now.
Klaas suggested to move the sentence "All Referee decisions are final, and cannot be protested." to the very end of the paragraph. I put it behind the sentence "Mistakes in paperwork, inaccuracies in placing, and interference from other riders or other sources are all grounds for protests." because in my opinion this two sentence belong together. The first one gives examples of grounds for protests and the second one says that Referee decisions are no grounds for protests, because they are final. But maybe the other members of the committee see it the way Klaas does. So I would like to hear the other members, do you think the sequence is more logical with the sentence "All Referee decisions are final, and cannot be protested." at the very end of the paragraph?
I missed that your proposal covers both 2B and 3B. That's OK.
As to where that one sentence goes, I see your reasoning. I still have a preference for the end but I would still agree to the proposal if you leave it where it is :-)
I hoped to hear the opinion of some other committee members, but no one speaks up…
In most cases if there is no discussion there is also general agreement. I like what you have!
I was the one having a slight issue but I spoke up already. I will vote AGREE to the proposal as it is.