Rule 14B.7.1 Free Shot II Clarification (distance of opponents)
Comments about this discussion:
Started
The rule says that "Opposing players must keep a distance with their unicycles and their sticks of at least 2.0 m from the ball.“
The rule gives no information on what happens if a player stays too close (and touches the ball).
I think we agree, that after the player executing the free shot has touched the ball the opposing player can attack everywhere.
But if If a player opposite the team who executes the free shot touches the ball within the range of 2m (the opposing player was there before the free shot was executed) is
a) The free shot replayed at the same place OR
b) The free shot replayed where the opposing player has touched the ball OR
c) The game going on without a penalty (own fault of the player executing the free shot).
And if a player opposite the team having the free shot stays at a closer distance than 2m how can the referee enforce the required distance?
Is staying too close considered an intentional delay of time (because the executing team has to wait until the player keeps a distance of 2m) or is this something different (e.g. unsporting behavior)?
This part of the rule 14B.7.1 needs clarification to enable better refereeing.
Comment
In every instance of a violation of the rules the Referee must penalize the offending team (14B.7) As opposing Player you have to give 2 m of free range, all other is a violation. As if a referee I recognise a disadvantage I would let repeat the free shot.
Staying too close and this too long or too often this of course will consider an intentional delay of time. How to penalize this behaviour we discuss this matter under an other heading.
From my point of view no rule change or addition will be necessary.
Comment
If the defending player is too close to the free shot and the shot is taken can advantage be played to the attacking team if they get one?
E.g. Player takes free shot but an opponent is closer than 2m, the pass is good and goes to a player in front of goal who scores.
Is an advantage accepted and a goal is given or is the ball taken back and made to be done again when the person is not within 2m.
If the ball is taken back and made to replay from basically the same position the defending team is receiving the advantage in this situation, not the attacking team.
Comment
I do mostly agree with you Herbert. But Rule 14B.7.1 says also that "The free shot is executed from the point where the violation was done." So the free shot should be replayed where the opposing player has touched the ball.
I think the advantage rule should apply in every possible situation, also in the one you mentioned Steven.
Comment
I agree with the last statement. The free shot should be replayed where the opposing player has touched the ball and the advantage rule should apply in every possible situations.
Comment
I agree on the advantage rule and that if a player within 2m touches the ball then the new penalty shall be given at the point where he has touched it.
Comment
"This part of the rule 14B.7.1 needs clarification to enable better refereeing."
I think there is no need for additional. This discussion has shows that we have to use the above interpretation as referees only. (Sorry, I haven´t done before, I haven´t seen this kind of interpretation.)
Comment
So are we agreeing that.
1. If an opponent within 2m touches the ball it is a new penalty from the place where they touched the ball.
2. An advantage is played if the opposition player was within the 2m when whistle was blown.
3. If a referee is telling a player to move outside a 2m radius but the player is not doing so the player can be penalised for intentional wasting of time.
However we are not changing any wordings for this rule.
Is this a correct summary?
Comment
Hmm. Let's read the rule again.
1. No rule change somewhere in the middle of the playing field. > "The free shot is executed from the point where the violation was done."
2. In the goal area we are now in trouble with two rules:
a) "Exceptions: If a team gets a free shot within the opponents’ goal area, the free shot is executed at the closest corner mark (corner shot). If a team gets a free shot within their own goal area, the free shot is done at a distance of 1 m in front of the goal line (goalkeeper’s ball)." (14B.7.1)
b) "The free shot is executed from the point where the violation was done." (14B.7.1)
Which rule do we have to follow in the goal area now? This was missing in Nicholai's need for a clarification.
If we don't chance some words, we have to follow the Exceptions and this means replay the corner shot or replay the goalies ball.
"What happens if a player opposite the team who executes the free shot touches the ball within the range of 2m?" The answer depends on the place on the playing field. >Normally the free shot is executed from the point where the violation was done. > New violation= new place. In the goal area in case of a new violation the free shot has to be replayed from the some place.
Intentional delay and the punishment is a matter of an other not finish discussion.
Is this a correct summary?
Comment
If we can agree on the interpretation of the current rules (which is
probably the case?) I don't see the need for any rule changes here.
Comment
Hmmm. The fact that we needed to discuss it across 7 posts to come to a conclusions suggests that it is not clear enough to allow easy refereeing for all people.
Ideally we want our rule book to enable anyone from anywhere to read the rule book and then referee the game as close to perfectly without having to confirm with veteran referee how to interpret things.
In one of our tournaments 2 months ago a referee ruled against "2. An advantage is played if the opposition player was within the 2m when whistle was blown." which I believed at the time to be incorrect. During discussions after the game he still believes that a team cannot get advantage played for an opposition player being within 2m when starting a free shot.
Not addressing this in the rules implies that for a situation like this the only way to "teach" him the correct way to rule is for me to say "this is how it should be ruled because we discussed it on the rules committee". Fine if you know someone who is on the rules committee but seems to suggest a limitation in our rulebook to me.
Comment
Most of the above words I like to underline. "Fine if you know someone who is on the rules committee but seems to suggest a limitation in our rulebook to me." We are only 7 volunteers from around the world in this hockey rule committee who are interest and work on the rulebook to make it more clear for all and easier to refereeing. We agree and disagree to someone´s suggestion, we bring in new or different points of view. "Fine if you know someone who is on the rules committee but seems to suggest a limitation in our rulebook to me." Our work is ongoing, not finalist. It´s a pity we are only seven. The shorter the rules the more open questions. This the reason we have clarification discussions and we bring a mixture of experience and levels with use.
Comment
OLD RULE
14B.7.1 Free Shot
The free shot is the standard penalty for all violations of the rules. It is applied in all cases except for those explicitly mentioned in sections 14B.7.2–14B.7.4. The free shot is executed from the point where the violation was done. Exceptions: If a team gets a free shot within the opponents’ goal area, the free shot is executed at the closest corner mark (corner shot). If a team gets a free shot within their own goal area, the free shot is done at a distance of 1 m in front of the goal line (goalkeeper’s ball). The free shot is indirect. The player executing the free shot may only touch the ball once. Then another player has to touch the ball. Opposing players must keep a distance with their unicycles and their sticks of at least 2.0 m from the ball.
Ok I am just trying to put something together that may take into account the things we discussed to have them in the rule book. I have put in the line about not dragging the ball as I think it should be in this area (as well as the 6.5m section)
New Rule
14.B.7.1 Free Shot Execution
The free shot is the standard penalty for all violations of the rules. It is applied in all cases except for those explicitly mentioned in sections 14B.7.2–14B.7.4. The free shot is executed from the point where the violation was done. Exceptions: If a team gets a free shot within the opponents’ goal area, the free shot is executed at the closest corner mark (corner shot). If a team gets a free shot within their own goal area, the free shot is done at a distance of 1 m in front of the goal line (goalkeeper’s ball). The free shot is indirect, the ball shall be played with the stick. It shall be hit, not dragged, flicked or lifted on the stick. The player executing the free shot may only touch the ball once. Then another player has to touch the ball. Opposing players must keep a distance with their unicycles and their sticks of at least 2.0 m from the ball. An advantage may be played if the opposition player is within 2.0m of the ball however if this opponent touches the ball a new penalty will be played from the location of contact. If the location of contact is within the goal area a corner shot or goalkeepers ball should be given.
Summary of the following points added into this rule rules:
1. If an opponent within 2m touches the ball it is a new penalty from the place where they touched the ball.
2. An advantage is played if the opposition player was within the 2m when whistle was blown.
3. If a referee is telling a player to move outside a 2m radius but the player is not doing so the player can be penalised for intentional wasting of time.
"The ball shall be played with the stick. It shall be hit, not dragged, flicked or lifted on the stick."
Comment
I think it would be a good idea to make a rule from this discussion (for the reasons Steven mentioned).
I think this is a good summary from Steven. The intentional time wasting should be ruled somewhere else (there are other discussions about this).
Comment
I'd like to bring this to proposal if no one does disagree.
14.B.7.1 Free Shot
[...] An advantage may be played if the opposition player is within 2.0m of the ball however if this opponent touches the ball a new penalty will be played from the location of contact.
I think the sentence "If the location of contact is within the goal area a corner shot or goalkeepers ball should be given." is redundant because the rule already says, that a free shot within the goal area is executed at the corner mark or as a goalie ball. ("Exceptions: If a team gets a free shot within the opponents’ goal area, the free shot is executed at the closest corner mark (corner shot). If a team gets a free shot within their own goal area, the free shot is done at a distance of 1 m in front of the goal line (goalkeeper’s ball).")
Comment
Maybe the wording needs a little improvement. This sentence should move from the end of this paragraph in its middle just before the "Excections: .."
or
maybe better the 2 sentences of "exceptions" move to the end of this paragraph.
In general I agree.
Comment
I agree with Nicolai that the text about the goalkeeper's ball is
redundant.
> An advantage may be played if the opposition player is within 2.0m of
> the ball however if this opponent touches the ball a new penalty will
> be played from the location of contact.
I'm not sure I understand this. What is the meaning of "opponent touches
the ball"?
Case 1) The opponent touches the ball _before_ the free shot has been
executed. Then the location of contact is the same as the point
from which the free shout should have been executed. Therefore,
the replay of the free shot will be at the same spot. No need to
change the location.
Case 2) The opponent touches the ball _after_ the free shot has been
executed. Then the game has already started and it is no foul.
This was already mentioned by Nicolai when he started this
discussion: "I think we agree, that after the player executing
the free shot has touched the ball the opposing player can
attack everywhere."
Comment
Case 2) No I think we agree, that if the opponent touches the ball within a range of 2m the opponent commits a foul.
Comment
I only cited what you have written...
Anyway, then I have another question, consider the following situation:
The player executing the free shot (accidentally?) touches the ball only
very lightly. The ball rolls away 50 cm, then it stops. What is the
status of the game now? You say the opponent cannot touch the ball
because it is still in the 2 m circle. The player executing the free
shot cannot touch the ball either because he already touched it once.
Does everyone have to wait now until a team member of the executing
player comes to pick up the ball?
Comment
Sorry, I did not see this in my first post, you're right. An my answer an hour ago is not accurate.
I think the rule should say, that a player which is at the moment, when the player executing the free shot touches the ball, is within 2m may not touch the ball. But after the player executing the free shot has hit the ball everyone can attack everywhere.
"An advantage may be played if the opposition player is within 2.0m of the ball however if this opponent touches the ball a new penalty will be played from the location of contact."
I think this wording says clearly what I said before: "... this opponent [within 2.0m of the ball] touches the ball..."
Comment
Yes. I interpret what that says as an advantage can be given if someone is within 2m radius of where the penalty is played and if that opponent touches the ball a penalty will be given from where he touched it.
In the case of what Rolf posted "The player executing the free shot (accidentally?) touches the ball only very lightly. The ball rolls away 50 cm, then it stops. What is the status of the game now?" based on what the rule says I would interpret that as. Any opposition who was NOT within the 2m radius when the ball was first hit can hit the ball as can any player on the team who took the penalty (apart from the person who took it). At this point only two people on the field cannot hit the ball, the person who took the free shot, for obvious reasons that they cant hit it twice, and the person who was in an illegal position when the ball was played.
In Rugby league you must be behind your player when he kicks the ball up the field. If you are not behind him there is no penalty called unless you tackle an opposition player. Only players on your team who were behind the person who kicked may defend. The person who was in front of the kicker may defend when he is in a legal position again. I interpret this the same way.
Comment
> "An advantage may be played if the opposition player is within 2.0m of
> the ball however if this opponent touches the ball a new penalty will
> be played from the location of contact."
I'm sorry but I still find this very confusing. I'm trying to construct
a situation where it becomes necessary to move the location of the free
shot. Maybe this:
STEP 1: When the referee starts the free shot by blowing the whistle,
the opponent is still outside the 2m circle (otherwise the referee
wouldn't blow the whistle).
STEP 2: The opponent rides into the circle.
STEP 3: Now the player tries to execute the free shot but accidentally
touches the ball only very lightly. The ball rolls away about
2m, then it stops.
Now either 4a, 4b or 4c:
STEP 4a: The opponent who is already inside the 2m circle touches the
ball inside the 2m circle. This results in a new penalty where
the ball was touched.
STEP 4b: What happens if the opponent was already inside the 2m circle
waits until the ball is outside of the 2m circle and touches it
then?
STEP 4c: Another opponent who was not inside the 2m circle when the free
shot was executed touches the ball inside the 2m circle. This
is okay, play continues.
This is too complicated for me.
I would simply award another free shot from the same location if the
opponent was too close, that's it. Of course, if this was intentional,
there's always the additional option for a 2 min penalty.
I'd prefer not to change the rulebook. However, I think that we should
explain this situation in the annotated rulebook with examples (if we
manage to describe this properly...)
Comment
"An advantage may be played if the opposition player is within 2.0m of the ball however if this opponent touches the ball a new penalty will be played from the location of contact."
>STEP 1: When the referee starts the free shot by blowing the whistle,
>the opponent is still outside the 2m circle (otherwise the referee
>wouldn't blow the whistle).
This is not always the case (due to mistakes), and we talked about this before and agreed that an advantage can be played (say the opposition is refusing to leave the 2m radius)
>STEP 2: The opponent rides into the circle.
>STEP 3: Now the player tries to execute the free shot but accidentally
touches the ball only very lightly. The ball rolls away about
2m, then it stops.
>Now either 4a, 4b or 4c:
>STEP 4a: The opponent who is already inside the 2m circle touches the
ball inside the 2m circle. This results in a new penalty where
the ball was touched. Yes
>STEP 4b: What happens if the opponent was already inside the 2m circle
waits until the ball is outside of the 2m circle and touches it
then? I would say no. They were in an illegal position when it was hit (and get a benefit of being closer to it because of that) I would say they cannot touch it next. Not very different from the person who took the shot not being able to touch it next. If the person who took the free shot touched i next we would rule it a penalty for an illegal play. I think if the person who was in an illegal position touched it next we should rule a penalty for an illegal play.
>STEP 4c: Another opponent who was not inside the 2m circle when the free
shot was executed touches the ball inside the 2m circle. This
is okay, play continues. Yes, once the ball has been played anyone from outside the 2m radius can touch it by coming in. This is the same with all free shots is it not?
>This is too complicated for me.
I think Step 4a is intuitive, I think that Step 4c is intuitive, I think step 4b is the more complicated of the 3 that you have mentioned but when you consider it I dont think it actually is.
My previous post on this matter summarized how you would rule your steps 1-4 in a two sentences.
Any opposition who was NOT within the 2m radius when the ball was first hit can hit the ball aswell as any player on the team who took the penalty (apart from the person who took it). At this point only two people on the field cannot hit the ball, the person who took the free shot, for obvious reasons that they can't hit it twice, and the person who was in an illegal position when the ball was played.