[FLAT] Advanced category

This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.

Comments about this discussion:

Started 03 Nov 06:45

The current rules state "Male and female competitions should be offered in each of the following categories: Junior Expert (0-14), Expert (15+), and Advanced"

There used not to be an advanced category, it only arrived at Unicon 17 in Montréal, prior to this only Jr & Expert category were used. If i am not mistaken I think it comes from NAUCC. I think in an event such as the world championships, the category "advanced" makes NO SENS. They are the world championships, thus you compete to be the best in the world. If you win advanced you're the best at not being the best... In junior, you're the best youngster, and that's okay.

Also many riders compete in advanced only to get a good position or a medal when they should definitely compete in Expert. Another grey area is where do advance stop, where does expert stop, how can we draw this line.

I think advanced category at the world championship is a utter loss of time and should be eradicated.

THAT BEING SAID, for other smaller and local competition I think an advanced category can be very good to motivate younger and not-yet-expert rider, but should be out of question for World Championships.

What are you thoughts?

Comment 03 Nov 12:07

Yeah, I fully agree with this. We've got guys who won advanced competitions claiming to be "world champions." I think it cheapens the title.

Comment 05 Nov 15:15

Could it just be based on age? What's wrong with everyone being over 14 competing in Expert? If you can't keep up with the expert riders, maybe you shouldn't be competing at worlds anyway. This is a savage rule, but again I think its a good argument.

Comment 05 Nov 16:52

In most disciplines at Unicon it is possible to compete in your age group and in the expert category at the same time. The result of the rider is just taken and put into different contexts. However, due to the battle system this is impossible in flatland. Therefore, I also agree with everyone that riders should only be able to compete in expert and junior expert. An advanced category is a good idea at local competitions but it should not exist at World Championships.

This being said, we will probably have to consider the fact that there would be a huge amount of riders entering the expert competition if the advanced category is abolished. The discipline is constantly growing and with no advanced category being in place any more some riders would definitely enter the expert category. This will become a problem with judging the qualifications runs - even if judges write down all the tricks of all the riders.

I think it is important to consider limits for the number of riders that are allowed to enter the competition and how to determine who is allowed to enter. Another thing that I noticed is that there is a pretty small number of judges involved in judging. Maybe it would be worth increasing this number as judging large numbers of riders is difficult and more opinions might make the judging fairer.

Comment 05 Nov 19:14

Alternatively, one could also introduce a system of different qualification groups in order to let everyone participate who would like to. However, this would make it very similar to X-Style.

Comment 06 Nov 07:31

I believe that if we abolished the advanced group, many riders would also not enter the competition at all, so I think the number wouldn't go up soooo much. So many riders only enter advanced, because it's advanced.

I think it's okay that not every rider can enter, it's the world championships, it's a competition, for the whole world, to see who's best, because that's what a competition is. Of course it's also fun, but I'm a bit tired of the oh-unicycle-is-such-a-small-community-let's-try-to-please-everyone-all-the-time.

It's like giving the whole list of qualification in order from 1 to 56th position, I think is also a loss of time and energy. Why should I try to find who did shittier between the guy who did a 360 unispin and a rolling wrap and failed 16 other trick and the guy who did 7 crankflips but failed 5 tricks as they're both clearly not qualifying and shouldn't have entered the competition.

For the idea of limiting number of riders entering I do not have an idea of how we could proceed, but we'll need one at some point. Using results from previous Unicons would not be fair I think exactly for the reason I just mentioned.

Comment 06 Nov 07:57

I think you're right Emile.

Maybe just rank like the top 25. That gives everyone competing a goal — make the top 25. Some people will realize they don't have the ability to crack that and they won't compete because of it. I think that would serve as an effective barrier for entry.

Also, ranking all the way out to the guy who got exactly last place really accomplishes nothing other than embarrassing that rider. If you just rank everyone in the top 25 and then have the rest of the competitors in kind of an ambiguous "didn't-make-the-top-25,-not-sure-where-I-placed" situation you take some of the pressure off of them — nobody will have to go home and be like, "Yeah I came in last place."

So the goal is to get every rider who actually believes he/she can make it into the top 25 and discourage those riders who don't think they can do it, while making the competition ideal for those who are gonna give it a shot as well as for the judges.

Advanced is a waste of time, ranking EVERY competitor is a waste of time, trying to please every unicyclist at the world championship is a waste of time.

Comment 06 Nov 10:20

I think it's a good thing not to publish rankings of all riders and rank only the first 25 or maybe just the ones that make it to the final?

However, I think that there still needs to be a mechanism to limit the number of riders who can enter the competition. It might work at the moment without limits but the number of riders in this discipline is growing extremely fast and the number of good riders is also increasing...

In racing and freestyle, there are limits on the number of riders from a specific country that can enter the competition and the unicycling associations of the respective country needs to find a mechanism to nominate riders. In general, I think that country limits are a good thing since it's a World Championship. However, it's already a big struggle in freestyle to nominate riders because of different unicycling associations that have their own nationals and it's going to be even harder for urban events as most of the riders are not organized in associations and as not all countries organize nationals.

Comment 07 Nov 03:08

Let me start by saying that I understand where these ideas are coming from. There are a lot of riders out there. The judging takes time.The comps take a LONG time. It's hard to find volunteers. Judges are watching the same tricks all day. More people need to be involved with this event because it's a BIG event. Even from expert flat in Italy it seemed like there was a LOT of riders in Spain.

Unicon isn't just the world championships. It's also the world unicycling convention. Everyone should get a chance to participate if they want to. In any competition and in any category. I am sure that for many riders out there this is the only unicycle event they go to. Shouldn't they have an opportunity to compete? Shouldn't they get to experience the thrill of going against other rides of similar ability? Testing their skills at their level?

I know its the world championships but it's also the only competition that many riders ever get a chance to take part in. Unfortunately unicycling is still a small sport and until there are more clubs, more events, more competitions, this is one of the few options people have to test their skills.

We don't have regionals or divisionals. Nationals does not count towards any type of qualifier so it has to be done at unicon. Unicycling is still growing and growing and I think altering competition rules in a way that either deter riders from entering a competition or make it exclusionary are a step in the wrong direction.

I think we need rethink the street and flat competition categories all together in a way that is appropriate for and inclusive to all riders.

Just the ideas on the top of my head:

More categories. Yes.... more. Beginner/intermediate/advanced/expert. Having more places to enter could shuffle more riders into smaller groups to make comps more manageable. Riders could also have a chance to compete against a more appropriate skill level.
Alternative category. Like for example : Recreational/junior expert/expert. Some people just love the thrill of competition but don't actually care how they do. Have a "fun catagory" to weed out those people leaving the expert catagory open for serious competitors. The registration could even say "serious competitors only" for expert.
Age groups: This might be a hard pill to swallow. But it might be time for age groups. But make it one or the other. People could sign up for age group flat or expert. Age group could be for people that really want to go up against their peers or people they believe to be at a similar level. Expert would be an "open" catagory. They only compete against other people in expert and a person of any age or skill level could sign up for expert. The nice thing about this option is that comps could run the same way they do now. The scores are just broken down differently.

Overall I think flat is big enough that we need multiple prelim circles running at the same time. We probably should also have more judges. I know good judges are hard to come by. Just something to consider.

Comment 07 Nov 03:09

All that considered. I think the top 25 thing is a good idea

Comment 10 Nov 04:58

Phil, I see your point, but requiring that would be a logistical nightmare. If an extended competition like that is of interest to the flatland community, I think that's fantastic and the flatland crew should definitely organize it. But I don't think it should be written into the rulebook. It is way, way too much work and complication for an already overworked and underpaid staff. But, again, that doesn't mean the flat crew can't organize a "flat day" where there is an unofficial bracket that encourages new riders to push themselves.

I agree with getting rid of advanced battles. I don't like that people who should be in Expert can drop to Advanced and get medals. Here's my proposed flatland arrangement: (The actual numbers/times are flexible, just trying to give an idea of logistics)

Prelims: No separation of riders, each rider gets two 2-minute prelim runs. There are three groups of riders that run concurrently for four sessions. Three judges per group makes 9 judges per session. Riders judge in the sessions they are not competing. The rider's prelim score is a sum of their scores for their two runs.
Finals: the top XX scoring men, YY scoring women, and ZZ scoring juniors have battles.

With this setup, age-group medals come from prelim scores, and final medals come from the final battles. I think making the prelim runs concurrent will significantly speed up the qualification procedure, and removing expert will also simplify the event. But I'm definitely open to feedback from flatland riders who actually, well, ride flatland.

Comment 10 Nov 07:04

Jenny, first of all prelims are 1 minute, not two. Secondly, the current rules states that the judging panel cannot change for a whole category/co.petitoon, it has to stay ghe see for whole prelims.

Also, making expert junior and females do prelims in thé se group would make it impossible to judge females and junior.

Comment 10 Nov 07:51

Dicks. I understand why the "no changing judges" rule exists, otherwise we could have very uneven judging in different groups, but that puts a serious limit on the number of competitors/length of prelim runs.

I don't understand, though, how this would make it impossible to judge females and junior. Unless there are different judging criteria for the different categories?

Comment 10 Nov 12:29

LEt me just put out a hypothetical here Based on what I believe I have read here.

I am a 15 year old rider that has finally gotten a chance to go to unicon. I don't know what it's like. I don't know how the comps work. I have only been riding for small amount of time. Flat land is my favorite, it's all I ride. I want to compete and see how I stand with other riders.

With what we have so far This hypothetical kid would have to compete with every elite rider. actually every flatland rider and then probably wouldn't get to see his/her results at the end of the day." Why did I come to unicon?" "i didn't even get to see how i did??"

Jenni I disagree. The flatland comp could run as usual in all three scenarios. The only thing that would need altered is scoring boxes in the computer. When you type in a riders number it already has their registered catagory marked down. scoring would be as easy as looking them up and entering their score.

My point is that I feel that some of these suggestions seem very exclusionary. Unicon, to me, has always been an inclusive place where a rider can test their skills. I just don't want to see a bunch of riders turn away from a competition because their only options are to either be an elite rider or not compete

Comment 10 Nov 15:51

I have more to add when I get a chance, but for now what I want to say is that I can't think of any other activity where someone's first experience competing would take place at the world championship. If there's going to be an advanced comp at Unicon I think it should be a workshop.

I think it encourages riders to pursue competition at their local/national level, to get their feet wet and start building a base of tricks that is worth demonstrating on the international scale. It also might help put some pressure on people to actually organize local comps.

Comment 11 Nov 08:58

I see where you are coming from Phil. I also like to think of Unicon as an inclusive place. UNICON is in the first place a convention of riders.

However, it has also evolved into an event where the top riders can show their skills and compete against each other. I don't know if it's necessary to give riders that come to Unicon mostly because of the convention spirit and to see what it's like an official event in which they can compete. I would like to leave the decision of organizing an "advanced" competition up to the host. There is definitely demand for such a competition which can be seen by the large number of competitors. But it has to be clearly distinguished from the official competition where you can become a World Champion. The problem with the "advanced" competition right now is that many good riders enter it because they hope to win a medal there. If there is a competition for less experienced riders it should rather have the name of a "fun" competition to show the difference to the main competition.

Comment 12 Nov 09:11

Phil, yes it's a convention, but also the world championships, the summum of unicycling competitions. It's fucking stupid that a shitty rider that just got into unicycling a year ago can get the exact same award for winning an "advanced" category as the world champion, the best in the whole damn world, of flatland, high jump, downhill or whatever. It makes no sens.

Are people unmotivated in other sports because they can't take part into the world championships or the olympics? No, it's a goal to achieve, it's something to look up to. They can't compete at the top level competition so they enter smaller, more locals competitions. Unicycling is pretty damn cool cause they can ride with the world's best a Unicon, they can attend workshops too (when there are some), sleep in the same room as the world record holder. That's what a convention is, it's a meeting point for people that share the same interest. It doesn't mean everyone even beginner riders should get to compete and receive an award that will totally devaluate the ones from the actual world champions.

Comment 12 Nov 16:36

I would like to make a point about a few of the arguments here.

There isn't strong enough support for the arguments presented that removing categories will improve competition. It is really just a matter of personal opinion that the World Champion would be devalued with more categories. I think it goes without saying that competitors in the top tier would obviously have the highest skill level of the competition.

I also think that removing categories as a motivator for other riders, or as a way to get people to start more competitions, is an irrelevant argument. These thoughts are purely hypothetical.

The reason that people don't have more competitions is because there simply aren't enough riders.

Specifically, here in the United States, riders are spread out all across the country. If you are not lucky enough to be in the city with a major club you are unlikely to have a strong rider support system outside of the Internet.

 My main point is this: I think the way that we conduct our flatland competitions needs to be restructured. Right now they are long. The same three judges have to be there all day and we have to gruelingly watch one competitor at a time.

Limiting participation is not a good solution to poor system design.

Only three judges are allowed to judge the competition? Well let's change that rule. We could come up with a judge certification process. This would allow us to have several preliminary runs happening, with different judges, all at the same time.

Our sport is small and it is not unlikely to think that someone's first experience at a unicycle event is Unicon. Because there are few events, we have to consider that these competitions are exhibitions as well as championships. People need to be able to see that, yes, there is competitive Unicycling and that there is a place for them to compete too.

Imagine someone who is relatively new to unicycling. They ask you if there are competitions. You say yes but when they ask if there is a place for them to compete, the new answer would be, "Not really." The only other competition at at their level is once a year and only accessible if they have one in their country and if they can afford to get there and if that competition have a category for their skill level.

Removing lower level competitions, at this point, doesn't make sense. If we want to grow the sport and make it as inclusive as it can be, we cannot limit Unicon until there are other options for beginning riders. Exclusivity and elitism will only make Unicycling unattractive to people who are looking to get into the sport.

I think that improving the flatland competitions needs to come from the structure of the competition itself and not from taking away opportunities for competitors.

Comment 13 Nov 01:52

I would like to make a point about a few of your arguments here. I will not take your opinion into consideration because you're taking about rules that don't exist, you have obviously no knowledge of flatland rules, maybe you should reconsider joining the rulebook committee or at least take the time to read the rulebook.

It's again hard for me to take into consideration what you are saying as you really don't seem to understand the selection of judges process and the judging. I don't even think it's even worth explaining it to you as it should be basic knowledge before entering the rulebook committee... maybe we could come up with a rulebook committee certification process.

Comment 13 Nov 03:05

Sorry.... was there a point in there? Something that contributes to the conversation maybe?

Comment 13 Nov 03:55

It's not only a matter of opinion. If someone recieves the same award/reward for their work, it devaluates the work. We saw that on a planetary with the fall off communism.

I also think that removing categories as a motivator for other riders, or as a way to get people to start more competitions, is an irrelevant argument. These thoughts are purely hypothetical.

Read again, removing the category is not a motivator for rider, you're changing what I said, so of course it becomes an irrelevant argument. The point is that the competition is too long, too many riders take part into it and apart from devaluating world champion title, it makes no sens to have an official competition of being the best at the "be the best in the world competition".

The reason that people don't have more competitions is because there simply aren't enough riders.

First of all, where does this come from and has to do with what we've said? Second that's not true, there are plenty enough riders, you only need motivation and money to organize a competition.

This is applicable to people all over the world. Most people ride alone most of the time.

Then start a new discussion with your proposition.

Limiting participation is not a good solution to poor system design.

I'll use your words on this. This is "just a matter of personal opinion". The current system we have is not perfect but I think is reliable. So once again instead of taking a shit on us trying to make things better, maybe show us your better idea in a new discussion. If you take time to read WHY we want to limit participation, then it would make sens to you. But you opinion differs here and you think 2000 competitors should be allowed to enter flatland if they want whereas some other people in this discussion think differently.

No. Read the rules Phil. "There must always be an odd number of judges to prevent ties" Because judges is plural, it means a minimum of 3. I can't think of any competition where we didn't use 5 judges. Do you understand that judging is subjective*? I'll let you reflect on why having different judges judging different riders wouldn't work, it should be plain obvious.

*Judging is subjective and it's okay, as long as you respect the scoring system and have a consistant opinion.

It's pretty much a nice fucking exhibitions. People ride everywhere all the time, you can sit 2 meters next to the competitions, talk with everyone there, there are friendly competition organized, video nights, unofficial events taking place, parties. The convention part of Unicon is very successful, it could be better with some extra workshop, but it is already very welcoming to beginner riders, and even non-riders. The world championships take part every 2 year, it's the world championship, once again, that is the summum of unicycling. There are plenty of events to join during those 2 years. There should be place to take part into WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, and if beginners want to compete, maybe there should be some unofficial workshop/competition/recreational type. But this is the committee of the International Unicycling Federation and we're having a discussion about a recreational category at the World Championship.

You tell them there are plenty of competitions and convention and everyone is welcome to them, but if they want to compete for the world title, they must attain a certain level. You tell them World Championships are only every 2 years but there are plenty of other competitions and convention around the world. I don't see how a beginner rider should take part into the competition aspect of the World Championships.

Once again, it does make sens, because we're starting to have to many riders at Unicon, which is the world championship. As many of us said previously in this discussion, it's about removing that category AT UNICON ONLY... because it's the world championships. As it is Unicon is already VERY welcoming to beginner riders and even non-riders. The sport is growing and already very inclusive.

I think that improving the flatland competitions needs to come from the structure of the competition itself and not from taking away opportunities for competitors.

To follow your logic... then don't take the opportunity of hard training riders to win a valuable title. And once again, please show us what you got.

Comment 13 Nov 15:56

I don't think I made my viewpoint very clear. My whole thought process on this subject is trying to think bigger picture going into the future of unicycle competitions. Namely with Unicon. My point is that I do not think that removing a category is going to make future unicycle competitions run more smoothly. Next Unicon we could have 300 competitors signed up for just expert. If that were to happen that would not fix any of the issues currently involved with our flatland competition System.

When I said "three judges" I was referring to how preliminary rounds went in Spain. There were only three judges for most of the prelims. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to Spain, clearly I was wrong.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the way the flatland competitions are currently being run. But I don't know if it's sustainable for the growth of the sport.

I do have some ideas for adaptations that could be made to the current competition system to make it better. I will make a new discussion when I'm ready.

Adding lesser categories would not detract from the world championship title. Anyone who has read the rule book would know it clearly states that the "world champion" title belongs to the winner of the expert category only. As stated here:

1A.4 World Champions

The Male and Female winners of each individual event at Unicon are the World Cham- pions for that event. There is no age limit to winning the overall title.

Age group winners can use the title ‘Age-Group Winner’, and the term ‘World Cham- pions’ generally refers to winners of Overall, Finals or Expert class.

Winners in the Expert category at of each event at Unicon are the World Champions. In the individual events, separate titles are awarded for male and female. Winners in the Jr. Expert category at Unicon are the Junior World Champions.

The male/female winner of the Expert category at Unicon is the Male/Female World Champion. The male/female winner of the Junior Expert category at Unicon is the Male/Female Junior World Champion. In the absence of any of these categories, no title will be awarded. No title is awarded for the Advanced category.

Comment 13 Nov 22:09

Warning: This part of my post is specifically about judging and not as much about advanced flat. Skip to next portion if you are only interested in the discussion about the advanced competition itself.

As far as judging goes, I also am not extremely educated on the rulebook. I will make effort to take a look at the rules so that I can be more informed in the discussion. For now, I believe more judges could be beneficial. I think three judges leaves one judge with too much power, which can be dangerous. Especially with the point system we do. That though may be a whole separate discussion. Also, on judging we got to keep in mind that something needs to change as far as competition, or judging. Judging should be more enjoyable or rewarding, not an all day grueling commitment. This way we get more participation. When I'm done competing, which is likely to be somewhat soon. (Unicon 2020?) I may just make it a goal to be a judge.

Anyway, going back to the advanced competition itself. I just can't believe that anyone who has just started unicycling expects us to have a place for them to compete at a world championship competition. Yes, Unicon is a wonderful place to start out if you have the money, but I think Unicon is a wonderful place to start out not because you can compete and many different levels, but instead can talk to the world champion where as you'll probably never get close to speaking to Michael Phelps if you attend the Olympics. Its the close ties between people and the welcoming spirit of Unicon. THAT is what the "convention" portion means to me. I love having new riders come up to me and ask how to 180 or rolling wrap. I think that is where the unicycling spirit is great. A beginner can walk up to an expert rider and say hello and they're on the same level. Two blokes, with one wheeled bikes, just trying to have fun. The competitions part should be for world renowned riders. I think that's pretty obvious. As far as the "World champion" title goes, I think its clear that the advanced rider is no champion.

Phil, I think the argument that we could just have 300+ riders is assuming a little much. Chances are it will discourage people who just want the advanced title from competing. This way we get more riders who SHOULD be in expert, and less riders who maybe should start their unicycling competition career at smaller competitions or workshops like Eli mentioned. Even if EVERYONE moved from advanced over to expert. That still means we just go through prelims and they get eliminated. This means that we can just have one competition with one set of battles rather then having to do advanced battles which take forever. I suppose we also have Junior competition too.

I feel as though this is mostly what has been said in the past, but I guess I just wanted to add in my two cents. I agree with Eli and Emile on this one.

Comment 13 Nov 23:03

Every competition at Unicon has multiple categories. why should flatland be any different?

Comment 14 Nov 01:57

Trials is junior and expert.

Street and Flat was junior and expert up u til Unicon Montreal. Advanced is anew category.

Comment 14 Nov 11:44

Trials has age groups as well..... always has

Comment 14 Nov 12:36

What do you guys think about having two or more rounds of qualifications? Let's consider that we would have three qualification groups of 20 riders each and only the first 10 of each group would make it to the next level of qualification, where the riders for the battles are selected. You could publish only the first 10 of each group so the judging would be easier and then the best 25 at the next level? The groups of the riders would be made randomly. Although one could also think about placing "group heads" like in soccer, which could be the medal winners from the previous Unicon.

It would have the disadvantage that some good riders might not make it into the battles because they might loose in the first round. Moreover, the competition would last longer.

However, I'm trying to find a compromise here. I don't think that there should be something like an advanced category. But maybe this system would allow for more riders in the competition. So there would be no need for limits on the number of riders. The pre-lims could be spread over several days if necessary and judges could be drawn from different groups in the first round of the competition because they only have to compare the riders within one group at the first level. Of

What do you think about it?

Comment 20 Dec 15:01

I never understand why advanced was introduced. In small competitions it can be ok but as some riders already state, Unicon is not the place for it. Me personal think also continentals and nationals should be without it. So I welcome the proposal while I would word it more clear/strikt.

Comment 20 Dec 15:41

While I do not disagree, I personally want it 100% out of Unicon. I know this is a hot topic so I would concentrate only on Unicon for now.