Practice time
Comments about this discussion:
Started
Section 4D.5
Case when practice is open between 7 to 1 day before event is not covered?
Comment
I don't understand the question. I prefer that riders be able to practice on any type of racing course, unless it's specifically intended to be a technical challenge, like Trials. The bigger question is whether this is possible. Our San Sebastian Road courses, for example, could be ridden, but probably not without a great deal of danger and probably in violation of a few laws. No safe way to practice until the roads were closed, just before the events. But if the courses were published in advance, riders would have had the opportunity to examine them to see what types of surprises might be along the route.
We can't guarantee that a Road (or other) course will be available for practicing ahead of the event, so we probably shouldn't promise it. Event organizers should make this possible when they can, with advance notification about this, along with course details, distances, elevation changes, etc. as they become available.
Comment
Ben Soja came up with the same problem in muni rules, and maybe with better explanation. So I just copied it below:
"5D.5 If the course is open for practice to all riders for at least 7 days leading up to the event, then there are no restrictions on who can compete. If the course is not open for practice until the day of the event, then anyone who has pre-ridden the course is not allowed to compete."
So, either 7+ days or zero. What is in between, like open training for 3 days before the race? Suggestion: "If the course is not open for practice until the day of the event" -> "If the course is open for practice 6 or fewer days leading up to the event"
Comment
John misses Maksym's point. Maksym means that the set of rules is not complete, and does not cover the case that the course is open for practice for a period of e.g. 3 days (anything less than 7 but more than zero). As for the solution, I like Ben Soja's suggestion.
But John does point out another issue in the rules: what if the course can be examined but not ridden on a unicycle. Example: the San Sebastian 10k course. But I think this case is clear: the course is not open for practice. Perhaps ons could check it out from the sidewalk, and/or drive along the course in a car. But if you cannot ride the course with a unicycle, it doesn't count as practice in my view.
Next question, if you want to be picky: in Wellington (Unicon 2010) the 10k course was initially supposed to go through a museum of sorts, for about 100m length. (The course was later, but of course before the race, changed to run around it.) That bit could not be practiced since the museum was closed, but the other 97% or so was unicyclable for more than a week. Does that count as open for practice? If so, what is the cutoff percentage?
Comment
Interesting, I never knew about the museum thing in Wellington. In regard to course changes, they are inevitable. What we want from hosts is to keep us informed:
- When the route is determined, let us know
- Road surface, condition, trouble areas?
- Gravel or other factors to ride over?
- Will we be able to practice on it
- If so, how much time will it be available?
In the case of Wellington, with museum, they could say Here's the course, but you won't be able to practice on the museum part. I remember taking a ride around the rest of the course. That sort of thing translates to possibly a map of the course showing which parts will be accessible and which will not (color coding, perhaps).
For practice time, it might be expressed as a schedule, of what times can be used, and others where it would be off limits. I think the requirements should be different for Road vs. offroad (Muni) courses. Road courses should be a lot less critical in terms of advantage gained by being experienced in riding it. This matters a lot more on a course with rough terrain and many technical areas to learn to cope with. The rule we're discussing here might have come from a section that covered both. If so, I don't think it should be applied the same to Road races as Muni ones.
For Road courses, as mentioned above, it might be possible to examine a course without being able to ride it, which is better than nothing. A street course might be open to traffic until just before the race starts, and the course might be designed to go the wrong way on one-way streets, etc. so even riding it with traffic might not be possible. It's just an in-between factor that riders can consider as part of their preparation to ride a course.
Comment
The following would be very hard to enforce, especially say they just rode a few blocks of it while on the way somewhere: "5D.5 If the course is open for practice to all riders for at least 7 days leading up to the event, then there are no restrictions on who can compete. If the course is not open for practice until the day of the event, then anyone who has pre-ridden the course is not allowed to compete."
I think for a world championship that all road races should be able to be practiced on in advance. I'm not saying that roads need to be closed, just that if they choose to pre-ride it that they take the chances of all local laws and must ride cautiously (i.e. not in race mode).
Comment
The more I think about this, the less I think this rule is even meaningful for Road courses. I believe the intent of this rule was for courses that had terrain challenging enough that someone experienced in riding it would have a distinct advantage in a race on it. Do we think this is even necessary for a Road course?
Also, is this rule repeated in the Muni section, or not present? I haven't downloaded a copy of the newly organized Rulebook and I can't seem to get the IUF site to load today. We have to make sure it's in the Muni section.
Comment
I pre-rode the course in San Sebastián and while it was in the middle of traffic and not at all close to a race pace it was still incredibly helpful and made a big difference in my race. A map of the course with info was readily available from the organizers and I felt it was sufficient. So as long as the courses are available to be ridden, even if not at pace, I find it sufficient.
Comment
I agree with Patricia: it helps to pre-ride the course, also in road racing. I think we should keep the current rule in road racing, but clear up the gap between 7 days and zero days. That gap was the original point of this discussion, not the existence of the rule per se.
(And yes, we need such a rule in Muni too.)
Comment
How to check if a rider has/has not recognized the race (by walking, riding, driving...)?
If the race is in public area, this is pretty much impossible, so this rule should not really apply here according to me. Everybody could come to se the track 1 year or one day before the race.
If the race is in a private area, there might be 3 options to deal with the problem:
1 - One (ore more) session is organized, and announced on the website, for the riders to see (and eventually ride on) the track. These are the only times when the track can be accessed by competitors.
2 - If the track cannot be opened before the day of the race, anybody who has seen it before cannot compete.
3 - If the track cannot be opened before the day of the race, and that the unicyclist who has organized and seen it wants to compete, he must provide a video of the entire track, and he must not has trained on it several times.
These are just examples of what could be done in such a case.
I might not have answered to the original question, but for me, seeing the race track 9 days or 2 days before the race is not really different for a road race.
Comment
I like options #1 and #2 that you provided, Martin. However, I am not a fan of option #3. I think that a video is not at all the same as having access to riding the course and it's very difficult to monitor how many times a person trains on a course, especially if they are the organizer. Also I don't think that there are too many situations where a course is so private that it has to be opened so it shouldn't be hard for an organizer to follow these rules and still compete.
Comment
Agree with John's comment:
"We can't guarantee that a Road (or other) course will be available for practicing ahead of the event, so we probably shouldn't promise it. Event organizers should make this possible when they can, with advance notification about this, along with course details, distances, elevation changes, etc. as they become available."
and Patricia's:
"I pre-rode the course in San Sebastián and while it was in the middle of traffic and not at all close to a race pace it was still incredibly helpful and made a big difference in my race. A map of the course with info was readily available from the organizers and I felt it was sufficient. So as long as the courses are available to be ridden, even if not at pace, I find it sufficient."
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In the road race, I don't think it's as crucial to practice the course as in MUni, but what we want are details of the course well in advance so that we can select our equipment if travelling from overseas. With all the Marathon and 10km races I've done- I found riding it once or twice, or walking alongside on the footpath, sufficient to remember the course layout and picking my race lines. I don't think I'd gain any advantage from practicing over and over.
Comment
There are many countries where riding unicycle in the traffic is illegal, so no practice would be available until the road is closed for an event.
I suggest to erase this rule from rulebook. The practice is not needed in road racing, but if some wants to preride he can do it.
Much more important are details on the course to be available in well advance, but these are already covered in 4D.3. Communication.
Comment
Good point, Maksym. We are trying to make the rules consistent and not give an advantage to any riders. Personally, I like to ride a course before the race but have also simply driven it when riding was not allowed or reasonable. But requiring the course to be open for riding before the race will almost certainly put severe constraints on organizers.
Comment
I re-read through the comments briefly and there seems to be a bit of disagreement in general here. It seems to me like there are three main solutions proposed above:
- Simply fix the rule so the 1-6 day inconsistency is gone, in a similar manner to the Muni proposal.
- Remove the rule entirely.
- Update the rule to make it more relevant for Road Racing on both public and non-public roads/paths. (There are multiple suggestions on how to do this.)
In any case, it is time to do something with this discussion. Useful and concise (that means you John) feedback of what to do from here is appreciated.
Comment
I am for option 2, Remove the rule entirely.
Comment
I tend towards Option 1, Simply fix the 1-6 day gap in the rule.
I hadn't seen the Muni proposal but it goes like:
For all muni races, every rider must get the chance of at least one test run to get familiar
with the track before the actual race. If possible, the track should be open for training
during all days of the event prior to the race. For multi-day events the muni competitions
should take place during the second half of the event in order to give riders more time
to practice on the course. There must be no race without practice possibilities.
That would be reasonable for Road Racing too, except that the last sentence is too 'hard' for road races. If I may make a suggestion for a new 4D.5, taking the good bits (in my opinion) from both the old rule and the muni proposal:
For multi-day events, all road races should take place during the second half of the event in order to give riders enough time to practice on the course. If possible, the course should be open for practice to all riders during all days of the event prior to the race. If the course has been open for practice for less than 7 days during the event, then anyone who has ridden the course before that practice time is not allowed to compete. Therefore, in that case organizers must ensure that course marking and set-up are done by non-competing staff/volunteers.
Comment
I'm leaning towards option 1 but don't agree with the last two sentences above that Klass wrote.
Comment
I like option 1 but would take Klaas's text minus the part about road races being in the second half of the event. I disagree that this is necessary and actually not a suitable recommendation. The 10k is often towards the start of Unicon and at NAUCC we often have road races the first days. It's not a problem.
Comment
Patricia convinced me that we can drop the first sentence.
I don't agree with Jamey to drop the last two sentences. The idea is that anyone who has significant advantage over other competitors from pre-riding the course, cannot compete. If we drop this too, there is only a recommendation left to have the course open for practice, and nothing about "undue" advantage. Not enough for me.
Comment
I think it would be almost impossible to enforce the 7 day rule. Some examples; what if someone rides all but 1km of it, does that count? Or maybe half of it? Or just the first km? Or it was on the way to another venue so they rode it for a bit? Or maybe they rode the same trail years ago on a fun ride? Would love to hear thoughts on these questions and how they would enforce them.
Comment
IMHO preriding the course does not bring significant advantage if any.
Unlike in Muni, in the road racing the course is easy to ride. The riders can with simillar effort ride full width of road, unlike in muni where the selection of beter line brings high advantage. In road racing, the way the riders take the course greatly depends on presence of other riders. For example, riders in the group cannot select perfect line if they are not in front. Keeping the speed also depends on the goup, not individuals.
If possible, the course should be open for practice to all riders during all days of the event prior to the race. - unrealistic, If the race is made on public roads, in the country with traffing regulations not permitting unicycles on roads.
Therefore, in that case organizers must ensure that course marking and set-up are done by non-competing staff/volunteers - But we talk on preriding, not seeing it!
Comment
@Jamey: yes there are grey areas; no rulebook can cover all possible scenarios. My answer would be that in such cases of doubt, the Referee must decide in accordance with the spirit of the rules: no significant advantage for riders who have prior experience that 'normal' riders cannot have.
@Maksym:
> IMHO preriding the course does not bring significant advantage if any.
Opinions vary on this. If you read through the discussion, you'll see that several riders think it IS an advantage for them. This includes myself. (I would agree though that in Muni it is even more important.)
> If possible, the course should be open for practice to all riders during all days of the event
> prior to the race. - unrealistic, If the race is made on public roads, in the country
> with traffing regulations not permitting unicycles on roads.
Road races will mostly be on public roads (exception Unicon 16, Canada). But also in most countries unicycles are allowed on public roads (in general, but not e.g. on highways). But indeed, in some cases it is not possible. Therefore, my proposed rule says "if possible".
> Therefore, in that case organizers must ensure that course marking and set-up are done
> by non-competing staff/volunteers - But we talk on preriding, not seeing it!
I copied this sentence from the existing section 4D.5; it was not the subject of discussion. I think the idea is that if the course is open for people who do marking and set-up, they could also ride it. In fact, that would be practical to get from one place to the other in order to do the job.
Comment
The simillar proposal in Muni is not yet voted but restrictions on who can compete are erased.
PROPOSAL 5D.5 Practice
For all muni races, every rider must get the chance of at least one test run to get familiar
with the track before the actual race. If possible, the track should be open for training
during all days of the event prior to the race. For multi-day events the muni competitions
should take place during the second half of the event in order to give riders more time
to practice on the course. There must be no race without practice possibilities.
@Klaas: If possible, the course should be open for practice to all riders during all days of the event prior to the race.
If the traffic regulations allow unicycling than it is usually open for practice all the time, if not it is unrealistic to be opened exclusively for a day or up to 7 days...
What if a race is repeatedly each year at the same course but cannot be open before actual race. Would you restrict past competitors with attending it?
Comment
This discussion needs a proposal. I am willing to ignore the deadline in the one case. Is anyone willing to write one?
Comment
If my comment from 10 days ago, minus the first sentence, may serve as a proposal, you have it already. Since Maksym is the owner of this discussion, I cannot directly write a proposal from this discussion.
In proposal form:
OLD RULE:
4D.5 Practice
If the course is open for practice to all riders for at least 7 days leading up to the event, then there are no restrictions on who can compete. If the course is not open for practice until the day of the event, then anyone who has pre-ridden the course is not allowed to compete. Organizers must therefore ensure that course marking and set-up are done by non-competing staff/volunteers.
PROPOSED RULE:
4D.5 Practice
If possible, the course should be open for practice to all riders during all days of the event prior to the race. If the course has been open for practice for less than 7 days during the event, then anyone who has ridden the course before that practice time is not allowed to compete. Therefore, in that case organizers must ensure that course marking and set-up are done by non-competing staff/volunteers.
Comment
Thanks Klaas. My only question to your proposed text is: how do you define a course as "open". I know this has been discussed to some regard above, but what if the route can be driven but not ridden? Or only walked? This situation is unclear in your proposal.
Comment
This bit of text was copied from the existing text, and indeed it is not very well defined. It's not just "open" though, but "open for practice to all riders". Driving or walking doesn't count as practice (to me), rather it's reconnaissance, or scouting-out.
I'd say that one must be able to ride the course. The course doesn't have to be closed for other traffic during these practice days, and so it may not be possible to ride (all of it) at race pace.
Still, I realise this is a rather strict position, but personally I feel that such riding helps me in my preparation. Conversely, if someone else has had ample opportunity to ride the course and others haven't, those others may well be disadvantaged. This proposal is aimed at preventing just that.
Edited text (just added the word 'riding'):
OLD RULE:
4D.5 Practice
If the course is open for practice to all riders for at least 7 days leading up to the event, then there are no restrictions on who can compete. If the course is not open for practice until the day of the event, then anyone who has pre-ridden the course is not allowed to compete. Organizers must therefore ensure that course marking and set-up are done by non-competing staff/volunteers.
PROPOSED RULE:
4D.5 Practice
If possible, the course should be open for practice riding to all riders during all days of the event prior to the race. If the course has been open for practice for less than 7 days during the event, then anyone who has ridden the course before that practice time is not allowed to compete. Therefore, in that case organizers must ensure that course marking and set-up are done by non-competing staff/volunteers.
Comment
Klaas, I disagree with proposed rule.
Usually as soon as the course is known and communicated to competitors (it can be weeks and months) they are able to inspect and train. We talk here on road races. Unlike muni courses, the road courses are easily communicated by maps. There is no need of special marking the course 7 days before a race, because if someone wants to take a look on it ha can take a map, and do it in any time prior to competition.
Also, in case somebody already started in e.g. Dusseldorf marathon, he know the course and should not be restricted in next editions.
I could think to agree with proposal if it is changed this way:
"If the course has been selected and communicated less than 7 days before event, then anyone who has ridden the course before that time is not allowed to compete"
By now, you knows my opinion that the rule is completely unnecessary and should be erased.
Comment
Let me give an example. If for Unicon 19 in South Korea, the marathon course is communicated to the competitors through the unicon website, they can theoretically travel immediately to South Korea to ride it. Realistically however, this is only possible once they get to Unicon. Therefore, only practice time during the event should count.
I didn't say that marking the course days in advance is needed, although in some cases it may be done. The last sentence in my proposed text is mainly about determining (setting up) the course. In the example of Unicon 19, Korean unicycle riders who determine the course have an advantage because they know it well.
I know that you think the rule is unnecessary, but if you read the discussion there are many committee members who disagree, and think that pre-riding the course is an advantage to them, in a road race.
If a course is known from a previous unicycle race, such as in Dusseldorf, indeed the rule should not apply. That is quite obvious to me, but I could somehow reflect that in the proposed text if you think that is better.
Comment
I agree with Maksym that this rule is unnecessary. I also think it would be very hard to enforce.
Comment
Opinions continue to be divided.
I think we should settle it through voting about an actual proposal text (not necessarily mine), I agree with Scott that this discussion needs it.